Anon, no generalization intended, it’s just my own personal experience. I think you hit the nail on the head viz. the Golden Rule. Sure, a lot of religious people ignore that too, though the evangelicals I am thinking of tended to take the Biblical injunctions more to heart — both the ones I share as well as ones with which I disagree. “Treat others as you want yourself treated” seems like something humanists could get behind too… but it’s a question of how many people (again, religious and not) can be committed to applying it CONSISTENTLY. And the answer seems to be: not so many.

Michelle, yours is a view I’ve wondered (and worried) about since I first noticed the apparent correlation. To paraphrase the great Walter Sobchak, say what you will about the submission of the Christian wife (Eph. 5:21-32), at least it’s an ethos! I’m still hoping it’s possible to save the baby of male strength-of-character while throwing out the bathwater of patriarchalism.

There’s a reason why I put Men’s Monday first, kids! This could be a blog unto itself…

It’s perfectly possible, in other words, to have plenty of training but not walk the walk when it comes to being a good person. Most people have had religion and look at them.

I think it comes down to character. You either have it or you don’t. And also you have to have the desire to be a good man, whether married or single, with kids or not.

Some people just don’t need or want that. So they are MIA.

I had an atheist->agnostic period for about 4 years before returning to the church, so I’ve come to terms with a sense of earthly morality that doesn’t require referencing a higher authority. 1) Treat others as you want yourself treated. 2) Don’t do things that hurt others. 3) Especially don’t do things that create gain for yourself at the cost of others.

Oversimplifying a lot, but those three ideas summed up a lot of my moral decisions without the need for a higher authority.

A lot of people (women and men) just don’t do #1. There’s some self-satisfaction people get by putting others down. Whether it’s “I don’t eat honey like the bee-enslavers”, or “I use a Mac, not like the unwashed M$ masses”, or “God hates gay people”. There are people that can’t just be happy with the choice they made for themselves. There has to be a degradation of another person in order to feel better about it.

Back to the question. I think the faithful’s appeal to a higher authority and a purpose provided by that authority would explain what you observe. The secular can fall into the trap of lack of direction, especially when they lose a sense of meaning to their life. I’m not saying one can’t live a fruitful, secular life. It’s possible, but requires a very strong sense of self-identity and will. And I definitely think most people out there lack both of those.

My first thought was that there’s a moral component, but you should know I’m certainly not one of those people who thinks organized religion folk have a cornerstone on morality.

So then, with my feminist glasses on, I thought about how many (most) organized religions are patriarchal, perhaps the more a man is involved in one, the more he feels responsible for and to women? And how maybe that isn’t such a bad thing, dare I say?

Will have to give this more thought….